Comments on: European Super Grid – “Wrong to suggest this would make Europe more vulnerable than importing Russian Gas and Middle East fossil fuels” – ? http://www.claverton-energy.com/european-super-grid-2.html Elite Energy, Environment & Tranporation Experts Tue, 31 Jan 2012 11:20:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Simon Masters http://www.claverton-energy.com/european-super-grid-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-3960 Simon Masters Tue, 03 May 2011 13:42:09 +0000 http://www.claverton-energy.com/?p=1753#comment-3960 @Chris Hodrien Hi Chris. Your comment, left one year ago on this is telling. Now (May 2011) we have Egypt a fledgling democracy, a War in Libya and a bomb in Maraketch. My position is that "joining up" national electricity grids across international borders will tend to permit greater penetration of renewable energy mix (e.g. Wind in North Sea, pumped storage in Norway) and I have seen some math modelling being used. However it is not clear if net cost reduction, lowest cost of ownership, cost to consumer or some other "sought metric" has really been identified in these models. Regarding the question of stabilizing geo-politics and risk of interrupted energy supply, I take the view that "benefits" outweigh "risks" and I sense you take the opposite view. Any suggestions how we might better articulate a "risk model" with which to test scenarios? @Chris Hodrien
Hi Chris. Your comment, left one year ago on this is telling.
Now (May 2011) we have Egypt a fledgling democracy, a War in Libya and a bomb in Maraketch.
My position is that “joining up” national electricity grids across international borders will tend to permit greater penetration of renewable energy mix (e.g. Wind in North Sea, pumped storage in Norway) and I have seen some math modelling being used. However it is not clear if net cost reduction, lowest cost of ownership, cost to consumer or some other “sought metric” has really been identified in these models.
Regarding the question of stabilizing geo-politics and risk of interrupted energy supply, I take the view that “benefits” outweigh “risks” and I sense you take the opposite view. Any suggestions how we might better articulate a “risk model” with which to test scenarios?

]]> By: Chris Hodrien http://www.claverton-energy.com/european-super-grid-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-1336 Chris Hodrien Sun, 30 May 2010 18:42:24 +0000 http://www.claverton-energy.com/?p=1753#comment-1336 Dear Dave (+Gregor), it's a bit naive to claim that : 'European grids of necessity already have existing sophisticated systems for coping with the sudden loss of a "large" amount of generation', when the capacity of current HVDC Interconnectors is around 2 GW (e.g. UK-France), vs. the Czisch plan requires links of up to 42 GW (e.g .Spain-France) as we heard at the recent UKERC/Claverton seminar. I very much doubt that it is technically possible to cope with the sudden loss of anything like 42 GW, which would lead to massive pan-EU 'domino-effect' blackouts. At present the equivalent capacity is spread among a large number of infdividual conventional stations located safely within EU borders. As for security vs. terrorism, while I agree that it is not impossible for a terrorist group to theoretically strike at generating resources within the EU, I find your (comparative) comments re. provision of security in North Africa thoroughly naive. Several of these countries are not merely subject to, but are/have been recently HAVENS OF, anti-Western terrorism, and their internal security situations are currently quite fragile. Western (EU) military security intervention to improve the situation 'would not be welcomed' and could lead to further political destabilisation, degenerating into Iraq-style scenarios. Have you not seen the famous film 'Lawrence of Arabia'? That single-line Hedjaz railway he attacked so successfully in 1917 is the direct analogue of a single-corridoor HVDC line. Even without actual terrorism, I fear the formation of 'SOLAR/WIND-PEC' (cf. OPEC, among countries 'of similar ethnic extraction') and a re-run of 1973. So the security issue is far from 'trivial' (which is not the same as saying it's insoluble). Also, on a technical point, the existence of multiple HVDC pathways 'per se' provides no security unless they have massive redundant SPARE capacity for that purpose, which I guess Gregor did not include in his cost calculations. Regards, Chris Hodrien Principal Technical Consultant Expansion Energy Ltd Dear Dave (+Gregor), it’s a bit naive to claim that : ‘European grids of necessity already have existing sophisticated systems for coping with the sudden loss of a “large” amount of generation’, when the capacity of current HVDC Interconnectors is around 2 GW (e.g. UK-France), vs. the Czisch plan requires links of up to 42 GW (e.g .Spain-France) as we heard at the recent UKERC/Claverton seminar. I very much doubt that it is technically possible to cope with the sudden loss of anything like 42 GW, which would lead to massive pan-EU ‘domino-effect’ blackouts. At present the equivalent capacity is spread among a large number of infdividual conventional stations located safely within EU borders.
As for security vs. terrorism, while I agree that it is not impossible for a terrorist group to theoretically strike at generating resources within the EU, I find your (comparative) comments re. provision of security in North Africa thoroughly naive. Several of these countries are not merely subject to, but are/have been recently HAVENS OF, anti-Western terrorism, and their internal security situations are currently quite fragile. Western (EU) military security intervention to improve the situation ‘would not be welcomed’ and could lead to further political destabilisation, degenerating into Iraq-style scenarios. Have you not seen the famous film ‘Lawrence of Arabia’? That single-line Hedjaz railway he attacked so successfully in 1917 is the direct analogue of a single-corridoor HVDC line. Even without actual terrorism, I fear the formation of ‘SOLAR/WIND-PEC’ (cf. OPEC, among countries ‘of similar ethnic extraction’) and a re-run of 1973. So the security issue is far from ‘trivial’ (which is not the same as saying it’s insoluble).
Also, on a technical point, the existence of multiple HVDC pathways ‘per se’ provides no security unless they have massive redundant SPARE capacity for that purpose, which I guess Gregor did not include in his cost calculations.
Regards, Chris Hodrien
Principal Technical Consultant
Expansion Energy Ltd

]]> By: Chris Squire http://www.claverton-energy.com/european-super-grid-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-1328 Chris Squire Sat, 29 May 2010 13:05:33 +0000 http://www.claverton-energy.com/?p=1753#comment-1328 Final sentence 'See also Czisch’ recent comment on security and imports.' links to http://www.website-designers.net.nz/ and NOT to Czisch. Final sentence ‘See also Czisch’ recent comment on security and imports.’ links to http://www.website-designers.net.nz/ and NOT to Czisch.

]]> By: power residential wind http://www.claverton-energy.com/european-super-grid-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-538 power residential wind Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:12:12 +0000 http://www.claverton-energy.com/?p=1753#comment-538 Great post, i like the way you say it :) Great post, i like the way you say it :)

]]> By: admin http://www.claverton-energy.com/european-super-grid-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-170 admin Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:43:40 +0000 http://www.claverton-energy.com/?p=1753#comment-170 Hi Nigel, By the way I was never advocating swapping the HVDC import for weapons – I was trying to answer a hypothetical situation advanced by some people, that bad people would take it over the wind and hvdc assetts and then threaten us – the point is that bad people already have taken over our energy supplies. Russia is now a gangster state according to yesterday's Guardian, (murder of Litvinov and 7 journalists in Russia), and you can pretty much say the same about most other countries who supply us with a lot of energy – but they have to continue to flog us the stuff since they need the cash – pointing this out doesn’t mean I support or condone it. Dave Hi Nigel,

By the way I was never advocating swapping the HVDC import for weapons – I was trying to answer a hypothetical situation advanced by some people, that bad people would take it over the wind and hvdc assetts and then threaten us – the point is that bad people already have taken over our energy supplies. Russia is now a gangster state according to yesterday’s Guardian, (murder of Litvinov and 7 journalists in Russia), and you can pretty much say the same about most other countries who supply us with a lot of energy – but they have to continue to flog us the stuff since they need the cash – pointing this out doesn’t mean I support or condone it.

Dave

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